Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoherent

CrossPosted @ Voices in the Wilderness

Barack Obama seems to be a little confused in regards to his foreign policy vise a vie talking to "terrorist". He laid out, over the past few months, what amounts to the most inconsistent and incoherent policy as it relates to Iran. He has been, in recent weeks, condemning Hamas while constantly putting forward the idea of direct negotiations with Iran. That doesn't seem problematic until you add his other beliefs into the equation. He said in a recent speech condemning comments made by George Bush during a celebration of Israel's 60th anniversary of statehood that Iran was financially backing Hamas, and by proxy, its attacks against Israeli civilians.

Read on...

It must seem like a stretch to even the most hopeful of candidates that the financial backers of a terrorist group are not themselves terrorist.

Allow me to lay out the hypocrisy in plain view:

Obama said he would not negotiate with Hamas because they are a terrorist organization. He then suggests that negotiating with Iran is ok which of course begs to question, who has defined Hamas as a terrorist organization and Iran ok.

The reality is that it has been multiple American and Israeli administrations who have labeled Hamas a terrorist organization. The problem for Barack is: they have also labeled Iran a terrorist state.

So, if Barack is to keep his pledge to not negotiate with terrorist he will have to remove Iran from the terrorist state list (as well as removing the Iranian National Guard from the list of terror groups). Fair enough, but this again begs the question, if you can remove one group from the list in order to allow talks then why not remove both groups from the list?

The policy essentially consists of a few ideologically held positions that have all been joined together through various speeches and packaged as a policy. There does not appear to be any overall purpose to the policy. For example, the question of how Iran will use its new position in the world, as a fair broker (a position that will be granted to it from many anti American nations after the Iranian President has photo ops with the American President), to help Hamas in its cause is, of course, never addressed in Obama's rhetoric.
It is clear that Barack Obama will bring change to the White House if he is elected. He will bring color where there was no color, he will bring more liberal policies and he will carry a liberal ideology. What won't change is the ineffectiveness of American foreign policy as it relates to Iran. If you had any doubt Obama's recent attempts at a coherent policy should have put those doubts to rest.  

I have, for 8 years, been certain that the next President could not possibly be worst the George Bush but if Barack Obama's promises become his policies (more than just his foreign policy promises) he may edge out Bush.



Display:


Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (2.00 / 3)

You think that Barack Obama will be worse than George W. Bush?  

This is the worst diary I've ever seen on MyDD.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:30:12 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (none / 0)

Ridiculous viewpoint, but not the worst diary ever...you forgot about the George Wallace diary.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (none / 0)

Red State indeed.

This is the standard b.s. that the right wing hurls. They see the world through the prism of Bush/McCain. That is their world.

They read Drudge, Red State and Malkin, listen to Bill O, Rush and Savage, and then spew out the crap they've been listening to as if there was some profound insight.

This person sees ZERO different between Hamas and Iran. They are one and the same. And therefore, in his twisted view of the middle east, he demands the SAME POLICIES MUST BE APPLIED TO BOTH Hamas and Iran.

Iran is meddling in Iraq, and has some kind of nuclear program. Iran is a chief supplier of world oil. Iran has been strengthened by every catastrophe we created in Iraq.

And Hamas was elected to power through Bush Admin supported elections, despite Bush being warned of the consequences.

But remember, Hamas and Iran are the same. They're terrrrists. See.

What a moronic argument.

 


by PatrickBradish on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh I'm sorry (2.00 / 3)

I must've wandered onto RedState excuse me.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:31:30 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (2.00 / 2)

I have, for 8 years, been certain that the next President could not possibly be worst the George Bush but if Barack Obama's promises become his policies (more than just his foreign policy promises) he may edge out Bush.

This diary needs to be deleted.


by mattw on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:32:16 PM EST

I CAN HAZ WRECK LIST NOW? (2.00 / 2)

Oh man. Diaries like these will not be missed when Crazy Season ends.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:34:02 PM EST

Re: I CAN HAZ WRECK LIST NOW? (2.00 / 5)

Oh. My. God.

Reading this diary, I discover something:  

There is no bottom to stupid.


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't understand this. (2.00 / 2)

How can Barack Obama be worse than George W. Bush by doing exactly the opposite of what George W. Bush does?

If what George W. Bush and "others" do leads to the worst foreign policy calamities in modern history, then how can reversing those policies and being willing to discuss and sit down with people who disagree be worse?

It's not a very logical statement to make. Furthermore, the terrorist nation list is a joke.

You do realize Saudi Arabia engages in some of the worst human rights violations in the world? You do realize they mistreat women, persecute homosexuals and put people in jail for excessive time for just having poppy seeds on the bread they accidentally brought over?

This diary is beyond the pale. Senator Obama wants to engage in REALISM as a foreign agenda - the same realism that President Kennedy, President Reagan, President Roosevelt and President Clinton engaged in.

And even this President has sat down with a disgusting leader. The King of Saudi Arabia and his cabinet. Or how about Rumsfeld and others sitting with Saddam Hussein when he was "in".

Terrorism is what you make of it. When millions are slaughtered in Africa, when hundreds of thousands die in Darfur, when North Korea gets away with actually having nuclear weapons, what is a bullshit terrorist list?

I thought I had come to expect at least concurrence on foreign policy amongst even the most extreme of Senator Clinton's supporters but I don't think I can expect even that.

I'm just going to assume you're some random individual looking to deliver a cheap shot because this is just... I can't even describe it.

It's so grossly negligent with the facts and loose with morals, I can't even begin to comprehend how I'm not at LGF.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:36:04 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies (none / 0)

There is a substantive difference between a "terrorist organization" and a "terrorist state."  We do business with the latter all too often.  There is considerable precedent for it.

Peddle your desperate wares elsewhere.  I ain't buying.

Iran is a legitimate and recognized sovereign state.  We can no more ignore their existence than we can wish Hamas away.  There are things we can get out of Iran through negotiation that we will not get through force of arms.

And even if I'm wrong, trying diplomacy costs us nothing.  We can always bomb them later.

Shoo!


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:37:22 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran ... (2.00 / 0)

Seems fairly clear to me.

The Iranian government is the legitimate ruling authority of a country.  They have stature and moral authority to negotiate.

Hamas is not the legitimate ruling authority of a country.  It WAS, for a short time, the legitimate ruling authority of a semi-autonomous territory of Israel, up until it led an illegal coup against the opposing party and gave up its stature and moral authority to negotiate.

It's not a question of morality, and who is a terrorist or isn't.  It's this simple matter:  Iran is a country while Hamas is not.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:38:29 PM EST

The truth of the matter is (2.00 / 1)

Is even if Hamas were the legitimate ruling party... you have to ask of what? The PLO? Not a recognized country.

But the United States does have the right to stop recognizing a country - to do so would be crazy but all they have to do is say Iran doesn't exist and they can get away with the bullshit they're peddling from a certain standpoint.

But that's not the point. We do need to negotiate. This diary is just another attempt to make something harmless and good-intentioned into something it's not.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (2.00 / 0)

One thing we need to think about.  This is all they have!  This incoherent nonsense is all they have.  The scared the bejesus out of the public in 2004 and barely scratched out a win.  Now we're four years later with an infinitely better candidate and a public ready for meta-change.

This is all they have, guys.  The policies and public sentiment are on our side.  They have lies and fear.  That's it.

Please understand that, while there will be some frustrating times (Barack will say something dumb or some stupid hit piece will gain traction for a few cycles) we will DESTROY MCSAME AND THE REPUBLICANS in November.  

This is all they have.  Fear and lies.

Not this time.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:41:29 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (2.00 / 1)

Seriously, this is what their campaign will be.  Lies and fear.  That's it!  The American public will not buy into it this time - I promise.

While this is predicted to be a Democratic year, I don't think people understand how thorough this defeat of the Republicans will be.  I promise you that Obama will be competitive in states that you aren't even considering in May (Texas) and that we will contest so many seats in the House that were totally unthinkable.

Our moment is now.  This isn't a fluff statement - it's a fact.  We could do for the Democrats this year what Karl Rove had spent his whole professional life dedicated to doing for the Republicans.


by Pat Flatley on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:45:03 PM EST

Difference, in small words: (2.00 / 0)

Let's see if you can understand the difference when I'm using small words:

  • Hamas: a group of people that has the destruction of Israel in its founding charter
  • Iran: a nation of 70 millions, grouping peoples whose history goes back millenia, and whose concerns aren't ALL about Israel or even about America.

So, basically, though you may want to present Iran as a merely bigger version of Hamas, the difference is that Hamas is a group with a specific and unacceptable purpose, while Iran is a nation and like all nations it exists for its own sake.


by Aris Katsaris on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:45:04 PM EST

Talk amongst yourselves. (2.00 / 0)

I'll give you a topic:

Wise Prince is neither wise nor a prince.

Discuss.


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:47:26 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (2.00 / 1)

My gawd what a ridiculous piece of drivel





by Bastet on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:48:34 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (2.00 / 1)

I hope that's from a movie set.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please Guys (none / 0)

Didn't you all get the word that a "no negativity toward Democratic Candidates" truce is now in effect?
Don't be haters, stick to the truce.
My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:55:22 PM EST

The Bush/McCain blog is thataway >>> (none / 0)


by Nomo Clintons on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:24:02 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (none / 0)

These 8 years of Bush have many of us (the author of the diary included) thinking irrationally.  Yes, Obama is suggesting a policy of discussion with the enemy.  Yes, he says that he would talk to Iran but that he would not negotiate with Hamas.  The issues are clearly different.

WisePrince, answer this question for me: Did we have, in the 1960s, open lines of communication with the Soviet Union?  Did we have backdoor channels to talk to them, and yes, even negotiate with them?

(To make it simple for you, the answer is yes, we did)

And then answer this: did we have open lines of communication with Cuba?

(The answer is no)

I suppose JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter and Reagan were all incoherent morons too?  Or maybe its just you...


by ckd5555 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:50:49 PM EST

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (none / 0)

If you do not engage the enemy, you lose all control.  Think about the interests of Iran and Hamas.  They are looking to shore up their own political support and they can do it better with a defiant America talking in tones of "Axis of Evil."  

However, if we engage them, we give credence to the moderates that exist within their countries/organizations.  Engagement does not mean giving away the farm.  


by ckd5555 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (none / 0)

I never said that simply talking to Iran is a bad idea. It's clear that many hear which to keep my viewpoint quite but if this site still allowed for debate you would know by now that I am not completely against talking to Iran. The idea however that you can talk to Iran and condemn others for talking to Hamas is laughable since Iran is, by Obama's own assertion, the top fianancier of Hamas.

To seperate the two is indeed a foolish policy if you wish to make any headway in the region. One would wonder, if you are going to talk with Iran but leave there support for the Iraqi insurgents, Hamas and Hezbollah off the table then what exactly will you be talking about? It seems to me that Barack's policy towards Hamas amounts to Bush's policy towards Iran, "We'll talk to them via proxy". Feel free to hide this comment as well it a continued attempt to squash all questioning of Obama, the latest American idol


Voices in the Wilderness
by Wiseprince on Sun May 18, 2008 at 08:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's Hamas and Iran policies define Incoher (none / 0)

What a hilarious diary.  Even though you're pretending to be critical of George Bush's foreign policy, but you're basing your criticism on an arbitrary definition (the "list" you mention) created by the Bush administration.

I'm sure this will be rec'd by all the usual gang because it appears to be more substantive than a "I love Hillary and nothing will change my mind!" diary, when in actuality, it's based on a mountain of foreign policy assumptions that Bush and the last eight years have proven to be complete shit.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:31:46 AM EST

Doubtful. (none / 0)

The Following Users Have Recommended This Diary:

Let's not engage in bickering. Both sides of the Democratic Party denounced this Republican attack.

And both sides have used Republican attacks, so it's nice to see unity on this one.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:37:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This blog is on RedState (2.00 / 1)

Red State Article

Case rested. Troll ratings and hide ratings won't be removed from me.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:08:37 AM EST


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