MyDD :: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision......

If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision......

by WashStateBlue, Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:01:46 PM EST

....how many years does Cheney deserve?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080807/ap_o n_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_bin_laden_s_dri ver_37

What a crock. I attended the Hamdan case at the USSC, and it was clear, Hamdan is a fall guy, a nobody.

He's as much a hard core terrorist as Dick Cheney is a patriot, which means, not much.

"Berrigan noted the conspiracy charges were the only ones Hamdan originally faced when his case prompted the Supreme Court to halt the tribunals. Prosecutors added the new charges after the Bush administration rewrote the rules.

"The problem is the law was specifically written after the fact to target Mr. Hamdan," said Charles Swift, one of Hamdan's civilian lawyers."

Kind like the Terry Schaivo case, Congress actually wrote a law specifically to target ONE man.

Yes, the Bush admin needs a scalp, needs to justify the abomination that is Gitmo.

Hopefully, Allah delivers the Karma to the David Addinton's and the John Yoos for their abuse of power and humanity.

I wished I believed that, that justice comes to those who deserve it, and the immoral and the wicked eventually get what they deserve.

Unfortunately, I live in George Bush's America. My faith is pretty low at this point.

Tags: Hamdan; Justice; USSC; Gitmo; WOT (all tags)

Permalink :: 41 Comments :: Post a Comment

here here (none / 0)

worked on 2 gitmo cases last spring - Intense to say the least!

vote blue in 2008

by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:08:45 PM EST

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Comparing Cheney to Hamdan is ridicoulous.

Some should be careful not to allow irrational hatred of Bush or Cheney push them into routing for the other side .

Anyone found guilty of working for Bin Laden or aiding him deserves to be dealt the full weight of the law.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:19:03 PM EST

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (2.00 / 1)

Anyone found guilty of working for Bin Laden or aiding him deserves to be dealt the full weight of the law.

Hmmmm...some would say that anyone guilty of working for George W. Bush or aiding him should be dealt with in the same manner.

Just sayin....

by Kysen on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:28:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

I don't take such people seriously.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:35:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

on this one maybe you should. i find the logic of your condemnation of a f'ing driver to be incredibly flawed. maybe you don't get the analogy above with transferred guilt re: Bush/Cheney employees; try this one then --- everyone that works at Fannie Mae from the CEO to the mailboy are culpable in the mortgage crisis ??? no of course not, and based on what little evidence has been leaked in the Hamdan case --- this is a pure and simple snow-job. praising this miscarriage of justice is for me tantamount to cheering the Bush crowd on. it is after all only for the vindication of Bush's ridiculous GWOT that Hamdan will rot in jail for NOTHING!

by swissffun on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (2.00 / 2)

So if driving Bin Laden deserves 30 years, how much should his cook get? Or his tailor?

by bottl4 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Hamdam was a mere chaufer, not a criminal mastermind.

hes a fall guy;

"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."

by alyssa chaos on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

exactly - and cheering this decision is nothing short of aiding Bush in continuing the deception of their GWOT as an excuse to instigate the PatAct and all it's lovely bells/whistles. this decision is nothing short of a huge dishonor to the USA. THIS THIS THIS is why all those people are lingering in Guantanamo? And if their strongest case - brought among the first - is THIS wow, those other still in jail must be totally f'ing innocent. what a sham.

by swissffun on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (2.00 / 3)

It just kills me that 7 years after the fact, the best we can do is brag about convicting bin Laden's frickin' driver.

Now, I am a good, bleeding-heart liberal, but every morning when I walk past Ground Zero to get to work, I ought to see bin Laden's head on a pike. That's how it should have been.

Instead, we have these clowns who capture bin Laden's falafel guy and hype it up like it's the greatest blow ever struck against terrorism. It makes me sick.

"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman

by Steve M on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Sure it is reprehensible that we having caught Bin Laden but that shouldn't stop us from going after and convicting other folks in the network .

It is just perplexing that some due to their irrational hatred of Bush/Cheney would somehow try to draw a comparison to Bin Laden .

Thats just derangement in my view.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Yet Bush and Cheney are responsible for more deaths. The Iraq war has killed many more people than 9/11.

by notedgeways on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

I don't agree with that at all.

The insurgents including Al Queada , Shiite Militia are responsible for the civil war and deaths going on there .

Not Bush or the American Military .

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What was the precipitating event? (none / 0)

Al Queada was not in Iraq prior the the occupation. The "insurgents" are insurgent against the US occupation.

Hussein was not exact Mr Sane, but Iraq was stable and functioning until the invasion and subsequent mishandling of the occupation. These people do not exist in a vacuum, we bombed the shit out of their country, and you expect people to say "oh ok, they are really nice people lets be friends".

If I came to your house and attacked your family I wouldn't have the gall to suggest that if you and your neighbors ganged up on me that it was your fault I killed members of your family.

The US bares primary responsibility for the disaster that is Iraq right now, and that falls at Bush's feet for false intelligence and possible forged proof.

by notedgeways on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What was the precipitating event? (none / 0)

I just don't see how you hold Bush/Cheney or anyone else responsible if an Al queada in Iraq operative walks into a market and blows up 500 people or if shiite militia men go into a sunni village rounds up sunni men and behead them.

Its absurd to me.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

i've heard that FOX News says the same exact thing. scary.

by swissffun on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (2.00 / 1)

Here's my point, Lori, and if you want to compare patriotic bonafides, I come from a military family, my dad was a Captain in Pattons Third Army, by brother served two tours in Nam.

I'm blind on one eye from birth, so dad told me I was going to College, two grunts in the service was enough.

My problem with this is, the Bush admin is SOOOOO lame at catching the REAL bad guys, instead they run show trials for flunkies, and somehow that is supposed to placate us.

And, WHO has done more damage to the US?

Hamdan or Cheney?

Our military service is in tatters, our economy is wreaked, because of Cheneys Oil War.

BECAUSE of his and his cronies interference with guys like Shinzki and Zinni, who TOLD them they needed 300K troops on the ground IMHO, lots of GI's are needless dead IMO.

Because he and Rummsy wanted to do this war on the cheap.

So, I know you are a southern gal, you bleed Red White and Blue, and you will never hear me discourage a real patriot, but when my brother was watching his buddies get shot up in Nam, Cheney was running through his 5 deferments cause he had "Other Priorities...."

Maybe I haven't earned the rights to call him a chicken hawk, but many who DID serve have....

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Hey I see your point Bush/Cheney would go down as one of the worst we have seen in a while in their handling of the economy , iraq etc.

My point is that we shouldn't allow disagreements to flow over the waters edge into a territory in which we would be equating an American president to Bin Laden or any of his allies.

You have a right to be bitterly upset with the administration but the comparison is just not appropriate.

I am definitely not satisfied that we have not picked up Bin Laden but that shouldn't stop us from going after his associates and getting convictions.

We should all be grateful for the service of these brave soldiers especially those that served in Vietnam including your own folks , I am surrounded by veterans of all wars myself.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even if we have to invent laws against it? (2.00 / 2)

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Hamdan, but his situation, and how the US govt handled it is ridiculous.

Kissinger is considered a war criminal in many parts of the world. Can the French arrest his barber and charge him with something? Especially if they arrest him first then pass laws making what he did illegal?

I am willing to bet that occasionally when you drive you speed. Would it be fair the next time you get pulled over for speeding, the cop arrests you and holds you in jail until they pass a law making speeding a jailable offense? Of course not.

What we are saying is, what Hamdan is really guilty of is not ratting out Bin Laden. anyone who comes in contact with Bin Laden without notifying the US could be found guilty of the same thing with a little effort.

by notedgeways on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Even if we have to invent laws against it? (none / 0)

I thought he was charged with conspiracy and providing material support for terrorism. Did we really not have laws against those things prior to 9/11?

"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman

by Steve M on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

his original charge was conspiracy (none / 0)

but was not convicted of those charges...

He also was cleared of two charges of conspiracy alleging he was part of the al-Qaida effort to attack the United States -- the most serious charges, according to deputy chief defense counsel Michael Berrigan.

Berrigan noted the conspiracy charges were the only ones Hamdan originally faced when his case prompted the Supreme Court to halt the tribunals. Prosecutors added the new charges after the Bush administration rewrote the rules.

"The problem is the law was specifically written after the fact to target Mr. Hamdan," said Charles Swift, one of Hamdan's civilian lawyers.

vote blue in 2008

by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:25:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: his original charge was conspiracy (none / 0)

I'm not familiar with the nuts and bolts of that argument but it sounds like something I should check out. Thanks!

"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman

by Steve M on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:32:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If it was a civilian court (none / 0)

It would be much more complicated.

I dont know much about criminal procedure (and much less about military tribunals), but Federal rules of civil procedure have strict guidelines when it comes to adding charges after the initial charges have been dropped.

vote blue in 2008

by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:44:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sry Lori (2.00 / 1)

We usually agree on a lot of things like this, but having worked on, and seen confidential information, i can assure that the situation is much more complicated than that, as is almost EVERY issue.

Yemen is a dirt poor country, many people are struggling to just get by on salaries less than what illegal immigrants working for 4 bucks an hour in your corner deli make in the US.

A lot of Yemeni clients remain in Gitmo because they had some tenuous connection to someone who worked for Bin Laden. Or they wanted to feed their families and decided to drive him around or be a body guard.

A lot of these same people who are now locked up in Guantanamo fled from Bin Laden and his cronies after finding out about September 11, or werent even directly linked to him, but were linked with someone else who was linked to him, and therefore "must be a terrorist."

Was Hamdan working as his driver when he was caught? How much information did he actually know about events half way across the world? When did he decide to stop being his driver? Did he stop after he found out about September 11th? Did he stop working for Bin Laden after the Egyptian Al Qaeda members and the Saudi Al Qaeda members had their falling out? Did he stop after some other event, where he actually spent his time getting away from Bin Laden's network due to fear for his life and the life of his family?

I dont know any of those answers, and quite frankly, I dont think they have any impact on Al Q's campaign of terrorism, or Bin Laden.

This is like convicting a Private in our military for decisions made by Generals.

Illogical to say the least.

vote blue in 2008

by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sry Lori (2.00 / 1)

Well the jury has answered those questions and that is why there was a trial.

He was convicted by the jury and as long as it is not overturned , then I think he deserves the full weight of the law.

Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.

by lori on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A jury (2.00 / 1)

of 6 military officers -

I hope after the automatic appeal the Hamdan team appeals to civilian courts.

vote blue in 2008

by sepulvedaj3 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 03:41:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sry Lori (none / 0)

the JURY??? Lori --- the curling iron seems to have been way too hot today!!! wow, this thread is starting to sound like having a debate with a full-blooded neocon. sorry, because I really think you're usually right on --- but this is just laughable. the JURY??

by swissffun on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Defendant: Your honor, I needed a job, so I became a driver for Bonnie and Clyde. Please don't put an innocent person like me in jail.

Judge: You have been found guilty to accessory of robbery and murder and your sentence is life imprisonment.

American public: Thank goodness!

by LesGovt on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:09:04 PM EST

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (2.00 / 1)

Wow, Hamdan DROVE Bin Laden to the 9/11 massacres?

Somehow, I missed that in the trial.

It's more like this

"Your Honor, I was only Al Capones tailor. He just bought suits from me?"

"He later used those suits to rob people. He had HIS gun in your pockets. You are an accessory to murder. You knew his reputation, you should have not sold him those pockets"

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Sorry, but Hamdan was not a tailor and he was a driver of a mass murderer. My example is spot on. You really should not be quite so sympathetic to a person who has worked for a person who has needlessly slaughtered thousands of innocent American citizens. You should be a bit more sympathetic to the victims that the associates of the killers.

by LesGovt on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:35:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Weak attempt Less....

What I am mouring for is not only those who died on 9/11, but the loss of civil liberties by clowns like you, who blindly believe any crap-ola Cheney and Bush feed you....

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

There were deaths besides 9/11. Please don't forget those innocent victims. We are at war and we need to win the war. Feeling sympathy for a self-admitted associate of a mass murderer and a person who has been found guilty of supporting terrorism is quite unbelievable. My earlier court comparison is correct.

Please do not let hatred for the current Administration cloud your good judgment.

by LesGovt on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 05:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

I'm not worried about Hamdan, though I think he got railroaded.

I am worried about the perversion of the constitutational basis of our system of justice?

Remember Habeus Corpus? Actually being CHARGED with a crime, instead of just indefinetly detained?

I prefer the American justice system; Evident, the Republics prefer the Gulag system.

Also, as I said, I consider this a Bush publicity stunt, a slight of hand.

They need scalps, and Hamdan was available?

Where's your OUTRAGE at Cheney/Bush for not getting Bin Laden instead of his driver?

Bah, you probably thought Lindy England was the mastermind of Abu Garib, we got the bad apples there as well.

Here's a statement you won't like.

David Addinton and John Yoo, but helping those amoral a-holes in Cheney's dark kingdom to condone and promote torture did 1000 times more damage to the US then Hamdan did.

Yet, you're OK with throwing him in jail for 30 years, cause he was Osamas driver.

You have a weird sense of equality and justice, thats all I can say.

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 06:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

I am sorry that you don't believe that a man found guilty of supporting terrorism should be sent to prison. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

As for the writ of habeas corpus and people that were captured around the world, this is not a police action. It is a war. These people were not captured in the U.S. These people were not in the U.S. If they should be afforded the rights of Americans via our Constitution, then you need to have every soldier in the military arrested because they did not read the defendant his or her Miranda Rights prior to shooting them.

These are not even soldiers that are protected by the Geneva Convention. They don't wear a uniform into battle. Why in the world do you keep defending these murderers?

The American public doesn't care for this war, but they don't like to see America defeated when it should win and we should win, but we cannot if a Democrat is elected in November. Further, most average Americans do not like to hear the venom coming from the left about how America has done everything wrong and then see someone saying that an aid to a murderer of thousands of Americans has been "railroaded." Unbelievable!! It is this type of rhetoric that is killing the Democrats. They should be running away with this election and yet the main race keeps tightening.

Semper Fi! my friend. Semper Fi!

by LesGovt on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 06:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Les,

Why are you here? Are you NOT a Republican?

Shouldn't you be at Town Hall or Red State?

I'm not going to bother to discuss with you, because the difference is clear?

You honor the man, I honor the office.

You honor the symbol, I honor what it stands for.

You extroplaite wildly, accuse me of defending murders.

I am defending the rule of law.

You insist Madison.

You STILL sound like a tory to me.

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 07:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

The good news is that I know what I stand for and you can't change that. I honor the symbol. LOL!

Let us know when you plan to plead for the arrest of all of those U.S. soldiers who did not provide Miranda Rights to all those they killed. Because, if you believe in the rule of law, as you put it, you have to believe that they should be arrested.

Have a nice day.

by LesGovt on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 07:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

Ladies and gents, from the School of Sean Hannity Debating, your typical Republic Les.

Yeah, see you around Less (I hope...)

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 08:02:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

I went to the school of less government. Sean Hannity had not even been born. Shall I read you the Miranda Rights? :-)

Life is actually fun. Enjoy it!

by LesGovt on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 12:22:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

You admitted on another post, you voted for Bush 2 TWICE!

The first time, one could excuse you, for the unknown.

The second time, you would have 4 years of watching that moran speak..or try to.

That pretty much says, you are really seeing a completely different universe then 99.99999% of us on this website.

Good luck here, again, not sure what you're doing spending your time here, instead of Red State or Town hall.

See ya.

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 01:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

I did indeed vote for the lesser of "evils." I am not ashamed of that. You can hate George Bush and people who voted for him all you wish, but that could do more harm to you than it will to us.

Why am I here? First, I don't know anything about the websites of Red States or Town Hall. I have never been to those sites and have no plans to go to them. I am not interested in talking to people who mostly agree with me. That would be totally boring.

I am here as I want to see what Dems think and to have civil discourse on issues. I have had several good discussions with some Dems who are not filled with rage and hate and want to explain to me why the Dems have better ideas. Naturally, we disagree on most things, but it appears that we may even agree on some things.

I will accept your wish for good luck here as a sincere comment and I shall. Thanks. Again, have a great day!

by LesGovt on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:24:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

The sad thing is, Les, and you will never see this....

Put us back a couple hundred years, I would be backing Adams and Jefferson, you would be pulling for King George and the Tories?

Yet, you call out MY patrotism, because I defend the rule of law, NOT the liars currently in power.....

"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player

by WashStateBlue on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 04:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Hamdan deserves 30 years in prision...... (none / 0)

The sad thing is, Les, and you will never see this....

Les: I see very clearly.

Put us back a couple hundred years, I would be backing Adams and Jefferson, you would be pulling for King George and the Tories?

Les: No, you are wrong. I would have supported James Madison.

Yet, you call out MY patrotism, because I defend the rule of law, NOT the liars currently in power.....

Les: I did not call out your patriotism. I called out your judgment on the narrow topic of who you support.

by LesGovt on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 05:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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